Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Anything and everything that's related to OGRE or the wider graphics field that doesn't fit into the other forums.
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New Wiki FTW?

Aye, we need a better tool
118
67%
Nay, I am perfectly happy with MediaWiki
28
16%
I don't care much either way
31
18%
 
Total votes: 177

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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

Don't judge the performance of test.ogitor.org - that's a (very) slow host.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by spacegaier »

Yes, creating a good structure is IMHO the -or at least a - very important point, which shoukd definetly be taken care of.

But: What's with the changes that are currently made to the current wiki? They won't be in the new one (and I guess making a new dump of the current one, would probably rollback all the changes we are doing to the new one).
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

Have to do that manually. I am going to watch the wiki like a hauk. Currently 22 pages behind, I think. It's manageable. :)
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

@betajaen: If you need it, I can grant you access to editing the stylesheets/templates through the web interface. If you have any images, you need give them to me, as I'm not going to grant any ftp access (am using Stealth's credentials here).

Just installed Web-developer for Firefox - should have done that right from the start. So much easier to tweak styles. :)
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by betajaen »

jacmoe wrote:@betajaen: If you need it, I can grant you access to editing the stylesheets/templates through the web interface. If you have any images, you need give them to me, as I'm not going to grant any ftp access (am using Stealth's credentials here).
If I change the CSS will the change be viewed by all, or just me? I mean can you set it up so there is another style/theme so I can use without everyone seeing pink and red text everywhere, whilst I get I hang of things.

If yes, then yes - go for it.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

I can just make a copy, no problem. I'll turn on the theme switcher - and call it betawiki. :)
If you like one of the other themes better, tell me, and I'll make a copy of those too.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by betajaen »

jacmoe wrote:I can just make a copy, no problem. I'll turn on the theme switcher - and call it betawiki. :)
If you like one of the other themes better, tell me, and I'll make a copy of those too.
Your preferred one is fine, as you can do almost anything with CSS. You should see what these forums look like to me when I have stylish to override the site css. ;)
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

Definitely a better look. :) I'll PM you the login details.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

Betajaen is making really good progress on the new theme. :)
Takes a while, but it's going to be awesome.

(You can't see it unless you're logged in, and switched to the Betawiki theme. :wink: )
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

In case you're wondering why the test wiki is down: it's being updated. Should be online again in 15 mins - around 22 CET. :wink:

The three screencasts are still up - and don't forget to vote :)
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

Online again. :wink:
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by Beauty »

I was offline for some days.
Thanks jacmoe for your investigation and presentation work.
The first look is strange to me. It's more like a view from a webmaster to a website.
My current choice is that I don't like it.

I think, the MediaWiki syntax is easy, especially for people who don't know HTML.
The TikiWiki user interface is looking much more complex (to me, now in the first moment).

The configuration point is right. Global wiki options are not userfriendly, because there is no interface. (Maybe there are add-ons or other front ends for administrators?)

Generally bad would be to transfer all the current pages (about 1000!). Many are outdated, but still contains good information.
Also I recognized that realy less people are interested to build up the wiki. Also very easy tasks will not be done by the crowd. (e.g. update a link to a new discussion thread, update a version number, copy+paste information from the forum)
I added easy copy+paste tasks to the wiki and also to an own forum thread. But somehow there are only very less people who spend time to enlarge/update the wiki. And I think with a new wiki it wouldn't get better.
I suppose it's much work to transfer the old wiki content to a new one (only done by a few people). The result is mostly just an other optical design.

Well, it's like I'm shouting. These are just my first thougts.
Today I'm tired. Next days I come back and want to have a second look to it.
Maybe I change my opinion when I play with the new wiki.

My current vote is no.
But I didn't click the statistic, because I'm not shure if I can change it later (if I want).
Help to add information to the wiki. Also tiny edits will let it grow ... :idea:
Add your country to your profile ... it's interesting to know from where of the world you are.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by spacegaier »

Beauty wrote:But I didn't click the statistic, because I'm not shure if I can change it later (if I want).
Yes, you can.

My first impression was also: WTF? But the next second, I saw the possible positive affects coming from that. The possibility to get fresh air in the whole wiki thing and (as all articles will need to get at least a quick look), the can be categorized and e.g. marked as "Obsolete" or similar, which can give a good basis for the future wiki work. But you are right, converting the wiki is a huge task and it will definetly still need some weeks until were are ready to show it to the world, but we are working on it and trying to grab the chance to make it better.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

All pages are already there.
Some of them needs some love, most of them are just fine.

We are talking about over 2,000 pages here - but it was fairly painless due to the MW importer.
(It was a GSoC 2009 project, actually.)

What's different about it is that the tools are much better.
The editor is a lot better, and more productive.
And as a result of that, you really don't need to learn any new syntax.

The tags are much better than the way we use categories in the MediaWiki powered wiki.
It's easy to put tags on a page, no need to edit it. No need to create a page for each and every tag you make.

Structures is a very good thing.
In fact, I think we'll make it a rule to not have any pages outside of a structure.
Visit the Tutorials or the Development structures and see for yourself.
It's simply not possible to get lost - not as a user, and not as a page.

You can use the List Pages feature to find pages not belonging to a structure.
That usually means that they are hard to find. Which is less than optimal.

Search is better too.
In fact, there's three (at least) different ways to find things:
  • Browse by tags (using tag cloud)
  • Use the search feature
  • By browsing the structure
For the Addons, there's an additional tool to make you find exactly what you want to find:
All Addons will eventually be entered into the Addons Tracker, which means they'll be in the list of addons, which can be sorted by category, license, type, whatever. And filtered.

But, I know this is a very sudden and maybe drastic change, so take your time digesting it. :)

I want us to have a good set of tools for our wiki work.

And I really don't think MW is a good tool at all.
But that's my opinion.

Be sure not to miss the screencasts. :wink:
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

Beauty wrote:I think, the MediaWiki syntax is easy, especially for people who don't know HTML.
Well, you don't have to learn any syntax at all to write in the Tiki powered wiki.
Beauty wrote:Also I recognized that realy less people are interested to build up the wiki. Also very easy tasks will not be done by the crowd. (e.g. update a link to a new discussion thread, update a version number, copy+paste information from the forum)
Yes, that's why we need effective tools.
Good tools makes it easier for us to actually manage to keep it current.
Beauty wrote:I added easy copy+paste tasks to the wiki and also to an own forum thread. But somehow there are only very less people who spend time to enlarge/update the wiki. And I think with a new wiki it wouldn't get better.
There are several enhancements to make that easier:
Wiki page bug/issue tracker.
A public task lists.

The page tracker will automatically put a notice on the pages which have issues, and it's easy to keep track of what needs attention.

The public and the private task lists are a good tool as well.
And the notepad.

As for keeping the addons up to date:
That's easier because its just a matter of updating the addon entry in the addons tracker, and both the list of addons and the addons page itself will synch to it.
Beauty wrote:I suppose it's much work to transfer the old wiki content to a new one (only done by a few people). The result is mostly just an other optical design.
I think you're wrong.
But I'd love to hear your opinion / critique later on - when you are not tired, and when you have visited the test wiki. :)
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

And - I forgot about the Ogre Wiki Codebank. :D

You have a small snippet you want to share ? :)

No problem:
Just add an entry to the Ogre Wiki Codebank, and you're done.

No need to create a page, or add it to an existing page.
No need to update any toc or list of links.

We can make a snippet submit form with a title field, an author field, description, code textarea with a dropdown select for language (mostly C++).
So it would be really, really easy to put a good snippet into the wiki.
No syntax required.
Let the Ogre Wiki Codebank template do the formatting.

There's lots of ways to make it better. :wink:
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by simply »

How to register in the new wiki? I want to see the style done by betajen.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

He's not done yet, so nothing to see. :)

However: just send me a PM and I'll PM you a password.

<edit>He did make a screenshot of it, and it's starting to look real good.. :wink: </edit>
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by betajaen »

jacmoe wrote:<edit>He did make a screenshot of it, and it's starting to look real good.. :wink: </edit>
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/6889/screenshot3xl.png
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/3043 ... hot1mr.png

Very Beta.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by masterfalcon »

betajaen wrote:
jacmoe wrote:<edit>He did make a screenshot of it, and it's starting to look real good.. :wink: </edit>
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/6889/screenshot3xl.png
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/3043 ... hot1mr.png

Very Beta.
Even so, it looks really good.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by xadhoom »

Nice! Green and clean! :wink:
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

Just brought back the old styles (templates) :
http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/Wiki+Styles :)

Wrote some help pages, porting notes and stuff in the Community section.

Current status:

Code: Select all

Ported: 292 Remaining: 1030 (Total: 1322).
But that's probably out of date already. :wink:

Indeed it is:

Code: Select all

Ported: 366 Remaining: 993 (Total: 1359)
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by Beauty »

I took a quick look.
The Mogre page uses boxes.
Most of them were not converted (or are somewhere else?).
And the top box lost its style (looks like plain text).
It's looking terrible to me!
Ok, maybe it can be restiled. Or I have to get used to.

If every MediaWiki box need a manually port, this would be much work.
Compare: current wiki page and the converted page.

This post is lesser a general critic, it's more like a bug report.

Oh ... and in the new wiki I only have 56 "scores" ... in the old wiki I made more than 1000 edits.
What a degradiation :evil:
Help to add information to the wiki. Also tiny edits will let it grow ... :idea:
Add your country to your profile ... it's interesting to know from where of the world you are.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

Beauty wrote:I took a quick look.
The Mogre page uses boxes.
Most of them were not converted (or are somewhere else?).
And the top box lost its style (looks like plain text).
It's looking terrible to me!
Ok, maybe it can be restiled. Or I have to get used to.
You don't have to 'get used to' that.
Take a look:
http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/MOGRE
Almost there.

Figured out how to style the tags. So take a look at http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/Wiki%20Styles.

The problem is that the MW importer usually barfs on templates in tables.
Which is why I have a full local copy of the MW Ogre wiki.
Beauty wrote:If every MediaWiki box need a manually port, this would be much work.
It's not too bad.
In the end it's easier to manage.
Beauty wrote:Oh ... and in the new wiki I only have 56 "scores" ... in the old wiki I made more than 1000 edits.
What a degradiation :evil:
Take a good look at your forum badge.
Do you think you've got it for nothing? :D
If it makes you happy, I can hack the database and give you the credits you rightfully deserve.
(And Spacegaier too).

What is important to me is that you get the best tools you can get. :)
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

If you could participate in a discussion, instead of whine, it would be better... :wink:

Several things about the Mogre page:
The sections on the frontpage could be included, like it is on the Tutorials page.
Keeps the frontpage clean and easy to manage, because the content is moved *inside*.

The news section could actually become a pretty page tracker, so you could enter news - like I demonstrated how to enter/edit addons in screencast II (I think) - that would remove the need to manually update the news box.
Just a suggestion on how to make it easy for you.

Then, everything about Mogre goes as children to the Mogre page.
A tutorials page with it's own children, a building Mogre with child pages, and so on.

The rule is that no page about Mogre is allowed to exist without having Mogre frontpage as parent/grandparent, etc.

Same about nxOgre and all the other addons.

Ports like Mogre gets their own section, Addons - Ports.
The rest of the addons are put in Addons root.
Tags and the Addons tracker list will make it easy to find them.

What do you think?
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