Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Anything and everything that's related to OGRE or the wider graphics field that doesn't fit into the other forums.
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New Wiki FTW?

Aye, we need a better tool
118
67%
Nay, I am perfectly happy with MediaWiki
28
16%
I don't care much either way
31
18%
 
Total votes: 177

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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

Just begun the Mogre layout:
mogre_layout.jpg
mogre_layout.jpg (40.66 KiB) Viewed 2197 times
As you can see, it really makes it easy to see exactly where you are:
mogre_nav.jpg
mogre_nav.jpg (14.32 KiB) Viewed 2197 times
Of course, the pages can be moved around, and new ones can be added.
Page names are not affected by any of that.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

Beauty wrote:Oh ... and in the new wiki I only have 56 "scores" ... in the old wiki I made more than 1000 edits.
What a degradiation :evil:
Yes, which is why you have your badge.
It's going to be the same for everyone. So just keep up the good work and you'll be way ahead the rest of us very soon. :wink:
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by Beauty »

jacmoe wrote:Take a look:
http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/MOGRE
Oh, now the style is back (-:
jacmoe wrote:Take a good look at your forum badge.
Do you think you've got it for nothing? :D
I never thought about it, because I saw it often and was thinking that it comes up automatically after xx posts. Some times ago I also had the rar sponsor badge.
jacmoe wrote:If it makes you happy, I can hack the database and give you the credits you rightfully deserve.
(And Spacegaier too).
When I'm died the descendants should see what I did in my life 8)
Now I counted about 1690 edits ... and I can't believe that it is so much.
jacmoe wrote:Then, everything about Mogre goes as children to the Mogre page.
A question. Is it possible to give pages more than one parent?
For example if an add-on page is related to Ogre AND Mogre.
Then it should be added to both add-on sections.
Or is there a strict parent tree with TikiWiki?
jacmoe wrote:If you could participate in a discussion, instead of whine, it would be better... :wink:
Sometimes I like to complain :cry:
But in general I see some advantages with the new wiki.
For example with MediaWiki it was a pain to create the Mogre add-on overview page and it's still buggy and less nice. Especially for adding new entries is difficult.


How we will manage the wiki change?
Preprocess the new converted wiki? (Check important pages and correct style bugs etc.)
Freeze the old wiki to prevent edits? (At which point in time?)
When we make edits in the new wiki now - will it be saved for the future or ist the current TikiWiki only a sandbox for testing?
I think this is important to know.

jacmoe, is this your first TikiWiki or do you have more experience with it. You seem to well known.
Help to add information to the wiki. Also tiny edits will let it grow ... :idea:
Add your country to your profile ... it's interesting to know from where of the world you are.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

Beauty wrote:
jacmoe wrote:Take a good look at your forum badge.
Do you think you've got it for nothing? :D
I never thought about it, because I saw it often and was thinking that it comes up automatically after xx posts. Some times ago I also had the rar sponsor badge.
...
Now I counted about 1690 edits ... and I can't believe that it is so much.
Well, you have 169 posts here, and you have a badge.
I have a feeling that it's due to your extensive wiki work. :)
Beauty wrote:A question. Is it possible to give pages more than one parent?
For example if an add-on page is related to Ogre AND Mogre.
Then it should be added to both add-on sections.
Or is there a strict parent tree with TikiWiki?
No, if it's related, then it's just related.
The child pages of Mogre is 'owned by' Mogre.
I think you can do that in Tiki, but it would be really confusing. :)
Beauty wrote:But in general I see some advantages with the new wiki.
For example with MediaWiki it was a pain to create the Mogre add-on overview page and it's still buggy and less nice. Especially for adding new entries is difficult.
If you need it, create a tracker for that.
Then the addons page will only be one tiny tracker-list tag and a template.
To add an entry or edit an entry, use the tracker.
This is a very easy way to do that. Definitely better than MW templates. :)
Beauty wrote:How we will manage the wiki change?
Preprocess the new converted wiki? (Check important pages and correct style bugs etc.)
Freeze the old wiki to prevent edits? (At which point in time?)
When we make edits in the new wiki now - will it be saved for the future or ist the current TikiWiki only a sandbox for testing?
I think this is important to know.
I am working on it, but could always use some help.

To be honest: We haven't received the bright green light from Sinbad.
But he asked me to ask the community - which can only mean that if it's alright with you guys, we are going to go for it, after Ogre 1.7 is out the door.

I'd like to have the old wiki frozen, but I am doing my best to keep up with the changes.

As for checking all pages: The structures are actually a big help. :)
Whenever I add a page to a structure, I check that it's alright, and if not: fixing it.

It's not a sandbox: it's a complete copy - or very close to being one.

Right now the status is:

386 ported, 976 remaining (1362 in total).
ported_pages.png
ported_pages.png (824 Bytes) Viewed 2149 times
Beauty wrote:jacmoe, is this your first TikiWiki or do you have more experience with it. You seem to well known.
Thanks, but I guess I'm a fast learner. :wink:
Besides, I really want this to be succesful.
The more people joining the effort, the better it will be. :)
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

@Beauty:
The MogreAddons template is done (first draft): http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/MogreAddon+tpl
Now, all we need is a MogreAddons tracker with 11 fields.. :)
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by Evert »

I think it's a great idea if we could customize the wiki more, so that it really has an Ogre-style, and not just Monobook style. One advantage of the Monobook style is that it's a real 'clear' style. The style of this new wiki is a bit messy, imho, which makes it hard to read sometimes.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by mkultra333 »

I'll be glad to see a new wiki, whatever it's based on. It was a pain to use the old wiki and find that half the stuff was out of date. So I hope all the old articles aren't just transferred to the new wiki. Hopefully instead the old wiki will be kept as a "legacy wiki" and when you do a search of the new wiki it WON'T show articles from the old one, or at least has the option to ignore such articles.

Yeah, and as others have said, hopefully the new wiki will have better search capabilities. That style used by wikipedia is pretty lousy for searches.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by Beauty »

Slowly I can chum up to the new wiki (-:
Related to the templates - it was a pain to create a template with optional entries.
First the MediaWiki version was to old. But after the update (after the server hack) it still didn't work although I read about in the MW help. Editing content of the add-on page was also difficult. So I hope this can be improved in the new wiki.
Sorry that I didn't help until today. I have to do other stuff and also I just make wiki work when I like to do so. And when I'm editing it can be as like an addiction :mrgreen:


@mkultra333
Yes, many page contents are outdated. But I think we shouldn't remove it, because there are still helpful information. Updating all pages is much work. Likewise not everybody has the knowledge of the content.
Well, my idea is to keep the old pages in the new wiki and mark/tag them as outdated.
Then everybody see it when he is on a page. Also it should be possible to show a list of all outdated pages so that helpers can see where something is to do.
In the old wiki I added ToDo boxes to several pages. So that people know what exactly to do at a page. I think this could be continued.

The main problem I see is that most people are not interested to edit pages. This is one big reason for outdated pages. But I'm happy about everybody who correct, update or create pages. Alltogether I think we have a huge documentation within the wiki. Many things are missing, but we still have much stuff to read.
Help to add information to the wiki. Also tiny edits will let it grow ... :idea:
Add your country to your profile ... it's interesting to know from where of the world you are.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

Beauty wrote:Related to the templates - it was a pain to create a template with optional entries.
First the MediaWiki version was to old. But after the update (after the server hack) it still didn't work although I read about in the MW help. Editing content of the add-on page was also difficult. So I hope this can be improved in the new wiki.
Your problems are gone, Beauty. :)
I converted the Mogre Addons page to using a Mogre Addons tracker:
http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/Mogre+Add-ons
The only problem is that it doesn't seem to work well with a table of contents, but that's a minor issue.
The only text/code for that page is:

Code: Select all

{DIV(type="span",bg="#c00")}__This page is still not ready.__{DIV}

''(there are problems with the outdated wiki version)''

''__Help to add information.__''

''For questions and suggestions use [http://www.ogre3d.org/phpBB2addons/viewtopic.php?t=7016|this thread].''
{img src="img/wiki_up/Puzzle-200px_c.gif" alt="Puzzle-200px c.gif"}

{TRACKERLIST(trackerId=4, max=-1, fields=>34:35:36:37:38:39:40:41:42:43:44:45, wiki="MogreAddon tpl") /}
As you can see, most of the contents of that page is generated by the TRACKERLIST tag, using the MogreAddon template. :)
I will add a link to the template for easy editing of the entries.
Beauty wrote:Sorry that I didn't help until today. I have to do other stuff and also I just make wiki work when I like to do so. And when I'm editing it can be as like an addiction :mrgreen:
Well, it was my crazy idea, so I am the one who's supposed to do the grunt work.
I am lucky to be able to spend my time on this now.
Beauty wrote:Well, my idea is to keep the old pages in the new wiki and mark/tag them as outdated.
Then everybody see it when he is on a page. Also it should be possible to show a list of all outdated pages so that helpers can see where something is to do.
In the old wiki I added ToDo boxes to several pages. So that people know what exactly to do at a page. I think this could be continued.
We have better tools for that in the 'new' wiki.
Todo lists and backlinks pages like: http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/tobedeleted, or - when it's working - the wiki bug tracker.
Beauty wrote:The main problem I see is that most people are not interested to edit pages. This is one big reason for outdated pages. But I'm happy about everybody who correct, update or create pages. Alltogether I think we have a huge documentation within the wiki. Many things are missing, but we still have much stuff to read.
I don't foresee a horde of new wiki editors, but I do see it being easier for us to manage the wiki, due to better tools and better overview.

It will require some getting used to, though. :wink:
For the most part, wiki editing is going to be easier and more straight-forward.
I'll write a small survival guide for 'former MediaWiki users'.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

First working version of the wiki bug tracker is online:
http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/tracker3

Each page has a Report/edit page issue form at the bottom of the page.
When a bug/issue has been entered, a prominent notice will be displayed at the top of the page, like here:
http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/Getting+Started

Enhancements to this would be to detect if an issue has already been reported, and thus disabling the report issue form.
And a drop-down for choosing what kind of issue the page has.
So that we can display different kinds of notice boxes, like 'This page is obsolete', 'This page needs cleanup', etc.
I am also not sure if it's possible to have multiple issues related to the same page..

Obsolete pages are probably best tagged with a link to the obsolete page. Haven't figured out how to do this elegantly.

Well, it's a start. :wink:
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

Bigger fontsize and increased line-height - should be easier to read now.
Waiting for Betajaen to make wonders with the new theme. :)
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by Beauty »

jacmoe wrote:I converted the Mogre Addons page to using a Mogre Addons tracker:
http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/Mogre+Add-ons
The only problem is that it doesn't seem to work well with a table of contents, but that's a minor issue.
I hope you/we don't forget the rest of the Mogre add-ons :wink:
I will miss the table of content :cry:
But it's a good change when it's getting more usable.
jacmoe wrote: We have better tools for that in the 'new' wiki.
Todo lists and backlinks pages like: http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/tobedeleted, or - when it's working - the wiki bug tracker.
A list of pages which should be deleted?
I wouldn't put outdated pages to a delete list.
Or did I misunderstand?
jacmoe wrote:Each page has a Report/edit page issue form at the bottom of the page.
When a bug/issue has been entered, a prominent notice will be displayed at the top of the page, like here:
http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/Getting+Started
This page shows the tasks:
http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/tiki-view_t ... &show=view
Currently the overview is not so good. Maybe you can mark up the important content (Description field)?
Or better: Downsize the rest (created, lastmodif, ...)
Help to add information to the wiki. Also tiny edits will let it grow ... :idea:
Add your country to your profile ... it's interesting to know from where of the world you are.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

Beauty wrote:
jacmoe wrote:I converted the Mogre Addons page to using a Mogre Addons tracker:
http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/Mogre+Add-ons
The only problem is that it doesn't seem to work well with a table of contents, but that's a minor issue.
I hope you/we don't forget the rest of the Mogre add-ons :wink:
I will miss the table of content :cry:
But it's a good change when it's getting more usable.
Feel free to mess around with the template. :)
I'll add the remaining Mogre Addons to the tracker..
Beauty wrote:
jacmoe wrote: We have better tools for that in the 'new' wiki.
Todo lists and backlinks pages like: http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/tobedeleted, or - when it's working - the wiki bug tracker.
A list of pages which should be deleted?
I wouldn't put outdated pages to a delete list.
Or did I misunderstand?
I think you do.
Let's create a page called 'obsolete' - and then all pages with a link to the delete page will turn up on the obsolete page, because it's using the backlinks feature. :)
This requires, of course, that people create a link on the pages, like ((obsolete))
View the source for the tobedeleted page.
I only used it for illustration.
Beauty wrote:
jacmoe wrote:Each page has a Report/edit page issue form at the bottom of the page.
When a bug/issue has been entered, a prominent notice will be displayed at the top of the page, like here:
http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/Getting+Started
This page shows the tasks:
http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/tiki-view_t ... &show=view
Currently the overview is not so good. Maybe you can mark up the important content (Description field)?
Or better: Downsize the rest (created, lastmodif, ...)
That's how it looks in a tracker.
It's nice that we can customize the output, isn't it?
Haven't looked too much into the tracker functionality of Tiki, but you can do a lot of things:
http://doc.tikiwiki.org/Plugin+Tracker+Advanced
You just have to start somewhere. :)
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by Beauty »

jacmoe wrote:I'll add the remaining Mogre Addons to the tracker.
This could be my first Tiki task to get familiar. So you can do other stuff and I work on my self created cunstruction site (page).
jacmoe wrote:386 ported, 976 remaining (1362 in total).
Does the MW importer imports all the database or do you have to do it page by page?
Help to add information to the wiki. Also tiny edits will let it grow ... :idea:
Add your country to your profile ... it's interesting to know from where of the world you are.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

The MW importer already did import the pages.

However, it's not perfect.
It was a GSoC 2009 project, so it still has some rough edges.
It doesn't like heavy math, so I had to port the Quaternion Primer manually. :P
And pretty pages with tables and templates is not exactly it's cup of tea.
Which was why your Mogre page was reduced to only a quarter of it's contents - the importer ate the rest of it. :)

Still, for the most part - meaning the majority of the pages - only minor changes needed.
Mainly inserting a TOC, fixing image names (Tiki is case-sensitive) and small layout adjustments, namely translating from MW templates to Tiki boxes/divs.
Small stuff, but it does take time.
But, at the same time, the pages are added to a structure, and sometimes a comment is added to the page.

It's good, because we get to look at each page.
Lots of good stuff in the wiki. :)
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by spacegaier »

Beauty wrote:
jacmoe wrote:386 ported, 976 remaining (1362 in total).
Does the MW importer imports all the database or do you have to do it page by page?
I highly presume that all pages were imported, at least all are already in the new wiki and I don't think that jacmoe could have done that that quickly manually.

EDIT: Jacmoe was faster...
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

But, Tiki is not perfect either, to be honest:
http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/Wiki+Annoyances
Not too bad, especially when you know how to work around those short-comings.
It's not all rosy, but still a lot better than MediaWiki. :wink:

It's awesome that it has Geshi support built-in - I used Povray syntax high-lighting just now, and CMake scripts it does colour as well (with links to the CMake docs). :)

Now, if only we could get it to link to the Ogre API docs, but unfortunately - due to the way Doxygen does it's anchoring - it would require a lot of manual labour. If anyone knows how to do that, let me know.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

So... Wassup, Beauty ?! :)

You have a lot of Wiki score to catch up on - let's see if you can catch me. :wink:

Your Mogre Basic Tutorials are ready.

C# only, for now. Some happy guy actually posted the source code for the VB.Net in pretty HTML.. Would take forever to de-HTML-ise.. so I put them on the Wiki Todo List
Ported: 464 Remaining: 908 (Total: 1372).
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by Beauty »

Clay Culver (or just "Clay") ported OgreDotNet Intermediate Tutorial 1+2 to to Mogre code.
The source is linked to his website http://www.idleengineer.net , but it's a pitty that he removed all his website content :cry:
Maybe someone has his e-mail address? Then we could ask for his Ogre stuff. The tutorials would be helpful.
If I remember right, he didn't a message which I send him 1 or 2 years ago.

For the syntax highlighted code in the VB tutorials just do this:
Copy and paste the source code of the old wiki page (normal view, not edit mode) and insert it to a plain text editor. Then all the HTML tags are gone. Then the plain code you can insert to TikiWiki. Totally easy 8)
Help to add information to the wiki. Also tiny edits will let it grow ... :idea:
Add your country to your profile ... it's interesting to know from where of the world you are.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

Yeah, what I said. :wink:
But search and replace on ~pp~ tags are way easier than such manual conversion.
I'll just leave it for later.

Don't bet on Clay resurfacing - he was hired by a Microsoft dept, so he's probably busy in Redmond. :)
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by masterfalcon »

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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by Beauty »

I wrote Clay a message. Maybe he read it and send us useful stuff.
In the wiki I read about his Microsoft work. But it would not take much time to search for his Ogre/Mogre stuff and send it to me.

By the way - on 29 November 2009 I send a message to jacmoe, but he didn't read it until today. (Look to the add-ons forum or your e-mail inbox.)
Help to add information to the wiki. Also tiny edits will let it grow ... :idea:
Add your country to your profile ... it's interesting to know from where of the world you are.
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

@Beauty: I rarely visit the Addons forum, but try your new powers now.. :wink:
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by jacmoe »

Now, all the NxOgre pages are converted:
http://test.ogitor.org/tiki/NxOgre

I am quite happy with how you can style this wiki - without resorting to html.
Take BloodyMess Tutorial 2 Nice, isn't it? :wink:
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betajaen
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Re: Proposal: New Ogre Wiki

Post by betajaen »

jacmoe wrote:I am quite happy with how you can style this wiki - without resorting to html.
Take BloodyMess Tutorial 2 Nice, isn't it? :wink:
Bah, all my HTML gone! Thanks to you meddling kids!

I notice the cube is being displayed in the TOC. We had to put the cube image in the heading line, but MediaWiki never displayed it in the TOC. I see Tiki different. Perhaps I can bodge it using CSS.
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