Paying the bills

[Aspirer]

I'm learning how to make games with Ogre. However I'm also working part time and going to school. I want to know how all of you indie game devs pay the bills. How is it you manage to keep a roof over your heads while still finding time to do this?

[Xecantur]

I can't attest to how they keep the bills paid, but I know that a lot of them sacrifice some sleep for the sense of accomplishment, I mean there aren't enough hours in the day to do all the things I want to do programming wise. only thing i can think of is that they go to regular work during the day and code at night or on the weekends.

[bstone]

One way that really works for many indies is accumulating enough funds to sustain full-time development of their own projects for 6 months or more. Otherwise you will most likely hurt your feelings more than you accomplish. So perhaps finish the school first and try to save as much as you can while you're at it.

[Kojack]

Based on what I've heard from some of my students, one method is to not eat.
I wouldn't recommend that though.

[saejox]

Based on what I've heard from some of my students, one method is to not eat.
I wouldn't recommend that though.

I have tried that. Does not work.
I once saw a scientific study that proved humans die when kept unfed.

[Zonder]

I simply don't have time to do anything 3D related anymore. But I try and keep up to date with the changes going on at least so when I do get that time....

I suppose I do also have the option of moving back into my mums going on benefits for a few years it is very tempting

[Aspirer]

Lol you guys!

I'm curious to know how Notch (maker of Minecraft) did it, and how do JacMoe and the other Ogre Contributors do it?

[EricB]

I'm no notch, or jacmoe, or even much of a contributor, but my game is pretty close to finish, in beta, and I actually pay people to do the artwork!

The answer to your question is simple economic budgeting:
1) Do not go into debt for any reason except buying a house. (Even school IMO)
2) Get a job
3) Do nothing but programming. PERIOD.

That's what has worked for me, I dropped out of college primary because I couldn't afford rent and tuition. I refuse to take a loan because debt is actually a very bad thing long term. I worked the same retail job from age 16 to 23, topping out at $10.50 an hour. Every waking hour not at work (and sometimes while at work when the bosses are not there) you spend programming. For me it's been the last 3 years with zero outside life. I don't do anything but programming, everyday. What does that mean? Workdays: goto work 8am-6pm, program 6:15pm to 3am, Weekends: Program 10am-3am, rinse, wash, and repeat until finished. 365.25days a year. Even Holidays.

To fill your social void, socialize at work, but be sure not to take up any not at work free time. Or prattle on IRC, because IRC will keep you close to your programming which means you can babble during compiling. If you start to feel burnout... take a hot bath, watch a movie without any computers around, then get back to work!


Luckily in my case the economy pushed me to move around and I landed a part time job that pays even better and requires me to work less hours than my crappy retail job. So now every penny I make goes to artwork for my project.


Good luck, and I just hope that gives you some insight.

[Zonder]

I'm no notch, or jacmoe, or even much of a contributor, but my game is pretty close to finish, in beta, and I actually pay people to do the artwork!

The answer to your question is simple economic budgeting:
1) Do not go into debt for any reason except buying a house. (Even school IMO)
2) Get a job
3) Do nothing but programming. PERIOD.

That's what has worked for me, I dropped out of college primary because I couldn't afford rent and tuition. I refuse to take a loan because debt is actually a very bad thing long term. I worked the same retail job from age 16 to 23, topping out at $10.50 an hour. Every waking hour not at work (and sometimes while at work when the bosses are not there) you spend programming. For me it's been the last 3 years with zero outside life. I don't do anything but programming, everyday. What does that mean? Workdays: goto work 8am-6pm, program 6:15pm to 3am, Weekends: Program 10am-3am, rinse, wash, and repeat until finished. 365.25days a year. Even Holidays.

To fill your social void, socialize at work, but be sure not to take up any not at work free time. Or prattle on IRC, because IRC will keep you close to your programming which means you can babble during compiling. If you start to feel burnout... take a hot bath, watch a movie without any computers around, then get back to work!


Luckily in my case the economy pushed me to move around and I landed a part time job that pays even better and requires me to work less hours than my crappy retail job. So now every penny I make goes to artwork for my project.


Good luck, and I just hope that gives you some insight.

I can add to that don't get a girlfriend and have children they eat time :S. With one exception the girlfriend works on your project as well (still avoid the children part)

[Kojack]

Children can be cheap beta testers though.

[TheSHEEEP]

The way I'm doing it is this:
I've worked for some time as a programmer for a company. Not incredibly well paid, but more than enough to save money every month (well, at least from the point on when I realized that I wanted to go indie).
Saved enough money to survive on that alone for ~ half a year - not counting the additional state support I'll most likely get for being officially without work during the first time of the project, before I go into officially registering an own company -, which is the time I'm planning for pre-production, creating prototype, etc. A good friend of mine will do the same, we will work on the project and create the company together (2 founders are better than 1, eh ).

We also have/will have some small additional income as we both hold lectureships at game schools.

I think the base points are:

• Save some money that you can live from, as you cannot really count on any additional income while you spend all your time developing your first game.
• Do not try to go indie as soon as you are out of school/university/whatever. This is highly unlikely to work.

Also, I cannot recommend, at all, the way bronzebeard suggested. Following that guide, you will be burnt out very, very soon, if you are not a very exceptional individuum and totally love to code all day. I certainly don't, for me it is just the only way to get things done (and be sure they are done correctly).
Actually, I'm not even sure he was serious, as to me that reads like a guide to destroy your own life. There will be times when you do almost nothing but work (like I do this and the next month, before I leave my current job and go all indie), but do not fill your whole life with work. It's not worth it, I say, not even to become an independent developer.

Don't listen to that (not too serious) no girlfriend, children thing
I can actually recommend having a girlfriend/boyfriend (whatever you favor ^^) who goes the stony way with you. For me, it would be much harder without that kind of support.

[Zonder]

Don't listen to that (not too serious) no girlfriend, children thing

Yeah wasn't been serious

Children can be cheap beta testers though.

Good point my lad is 3 next week need to start training him to be the ultimate tester!!

[mkultra333]

If you're lucky, you can get cheap rent and a part time job, and program in your spare time. I was lucky for about the last four years, but my luck ran out this week... forced onto full time work AND lost my cheap lease. So programming time is going to be pretty sparse for a while.

[warlaan]

I agree with TheSHEEEP. Well, mostly because I am that "good friend" he mentioned.

I think it is important to build a healthy foundation for whatever enterprise you want to start.
There are many factors that can make your project fail - in fact I think it is good sense to expect your projects to fail.
Why? Well, just try to answer this question: what defines a successful game project?
Is it the number of happy customers?
Is it the number of paying customers?
Is it how you were able to fulfill the vision of the vision keeper, maybe even by ignoring the wishes of other team members?
Is it the experience and fatigue that resulted from the project and heavily influences the next one?
Is it the social situation the project leaves you in once you are finished with it? (after all most people see their job simply as a means to support their life style).
From those few years of experience that I have working at a large browser game company I can tell you - you will most likely not be able to achieve more than one or maybe two of these goals.
Just think about what bronzebeard wrote. There is reason to believe that with that attitude he will succeed in creating a technically working game that may even sell quite a bit (of course I hope he achieves a lot more than that!). It is however definately not the best way to make sure you achieve the last two goals - avoiding fatigue in order to follow up with an even better project and reaching a position in life that does not leave you wondering at 40 what life could have been if you hadn't decided to spent every single minute working.

So what I strongly recommend is finding as many ways to support your project as possible - you just never know why in the end you might not be able to use some of them.
As TheSHEEEP said, we are both making some extra money by giving lectures and we expect to have to do some contract work for websites or similar. But what if we don't find anyone paying us for making websites? And what if for some reason we can't give lectures anymore (maybe we don't have the time, maybe we get sick, maybe the schools stop hiring us)?
In that case we can live on our savings for at least half a year, giving uns some time to find new contractors. What if it takes longer than that?
At that point we expect to be at a place in the production to either start a crowd-funding campaign or start selling the beta (a la Minecraft or Don't starve). What if we don't succeed with the campaign and no-one buys our beta?
In that case we have the support of our relatives that already promised enough financial support to keep the project going for at least half a year. What if we use up that money or our relatives change their mind?
If it should ever come to this, then we would have to go back to "regular" jobs in the gaming industry, which is why we made sure that we don't leave our previous jobs on bad terms and that our project is not "weird", meaning something that could wreck your CV. If e.g. you are asked about what you did in that project and your answer has to be "well, I was all alone and spent two years trying to get something done, and in the end it sold decently", that might be seen as a sign that you could be unable to work in larger teams or keep a deadline.

I want to make creating games a living, not just a thing you do to get some money or to once fulfill your dreams and then return to a job you don't like.
Not just because I am passionate about making games, but because I think that this is the only way you can really have a fulfilled life and not stop after several years and start to regret your decisions.
The patience needed to keep doing projects that make the most sense at the moment rather than just working on your dream project is painstaking, but I am confident that in the end it will pay out. I don't want to be able to think back to the good times, I want to be able to look forward to them.

[drwbns]

Funny cause I think I'm on the BronzeBeard path practically zero social life, most time outside of work spent programming, or with girlfriend. Yes, it does suck as far as sacrifices but it somewhat works. To be paid for time programming seems much more logical.

[bstone]

Lol you guys! He summoned Notch and JacMoe to tell how exactly they do it. And you're bitching about your hard indie life here. Didn't you know who "all you indie devs" are after all?

[Nauk]

Get a part time job that covers the basics, 2-3 days a week, still leaves you with 4 days to code. Or alternately freelancing projects can pay the bills, webstuff etc, the obvious trick is to find well paying customers. As for time management, there's some truth to the girlfriend, kids, dog, other hobbies, social life thing, you just have to decide what is more important for the moment and cut down the rest. Then set yourself fixed working hours per day / week, schedule them and stick to it as good as you can. Either way, be ready to make sacrifices.

[Aspirer]

BronzeBeard that is probably the worst advice I have ever heard. I say this because I know for a fact that educational debt is the best kind of debt that a person can have. I know this because I've heard it from some very knowledgeable people about it (my instructors). I couldn't live the kind of lifestyle you suggested even if I tried. As it is I spend about 5% of my awake time programming and the rest of it gaming, doing homework, studying, and working. There are some things in life I refuse to give up, and a few of them are free-time, sleep, and a social life.

Excellent points the rest of you though.

[EricB]

BronzeBeard that is probably the worst advice I have ever heard. I say this because I know for a fact that educational debt is the best kind of debt that a person can have. I know this because I've heard it from some very knowledgeable people about it (my instructors). I couldn't live the kind of lifestyle you suggested even if I tried. As it is I spend about 5% of my awake time programming and the rest of it gaming, doing homework, studying, and working. There are some things in life I refuse to give up, and a few of them are free-time, sleep, and a social life.

Excellent points the rest of you though.

You're probably not an American. Here in the States going $50-$200k in debt for a BSCS is not worth it imho. The degree paper is just for getting your foot in the door. After that you can use it for toilet paper. In reality success in programming is about who you know and what you have worked on.

You could put that 50k for college in a Roth IRA and have a million dollars, tax free by the time you retire. After you wrote a few programs yourself you'd have more than enough on a resume for any decent company (note ones not ran by HR departments) to hire you.

Anyway you asked me how I funded my Indie game, I told you how. My biggest flaw is I hate working with other programmers, and I refuse to live in the urban sprawl that is LA or NYC, else my uneducated(and debt free) ass would probably be working as a codemonkey.

*EDIT* Just reread your post, I want you took look up articles on the "Student Debt Crisis", you'll see that student debts out weight credit card debt and car loans. 30% of people with student debt don't have degrees, and how it's impossible to bankrupt from and how it messes up your FICO score... Personal economics lessons for ya. Example: http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/06/opinion/b ... udent-debt

The way I'm doing it is this:
Also, I cannot recommend, at all, the way bronzebeard suggested. Following that guide, you will be burnt out very, very soon, if you are not a very exceptional individuum and totally love to code all day. I certainly don't, for me it is just the only way to get things done (and be sure they are done correctly).
Actually, I'm not even sure he was serious, as to me that reads like a guide to destroy your own life. There will be times when you do almost nothing but work (like I do this and the next month, before I leave my current job and go all indie), but do not fill your whole life with work. It's not worth it, I say, not even to become an independent developer.

I was being serious, That's has been my life for the last 3 years and I'm not the only one. #ogre3d is filled with people like this(with minor variations). Having worked for a bunch of mods and other indie projects, pure dedication is about the only way to prevent loss of interest and avoid vapor-ware.

I can add to that don't get a girlfriend and have children they eat time :S. With one exception the girlfriend works on your project as well (still avoid the children part)

The key is to start programming before you get a girlfriend... then you'll have no time to have/get a girlfriend... Thus no Kids.
Women are the bane of productive programming!

[Xavyiy]

The key is to start programming before you get a girlfriend... then you'll have no time to have/get a girlfriend... Thus no Kids.
Women are the bane of productive programming!

Dunno if you're being serious or not.

Anyway, I started to code 9 years ago, when I was 14. Since then, I've had multiple relations (obviously, considering the age I was when I started coding!): some shorter, some larger - but almost always with a girl around my head. In all this time, I've never found a correlation between having girlfriend and being less productive, never.

In fact, I very think it's the opposite: when you feel your social needs are covered, then you feel highly motivate - even without any real reason - and this motivation makes you create more ambitous things.

At the present, I'm in a relationship since about 3 years ago, and I think I've done pretty cool things: the major part of Paradise Engine (more news in September guys!), and SkyX v0.2 to 0.4. Also, I'm finishing my 5-years university degree, Telecomunications Engineering.

So here is my advice: get fun when it's time for getting fun (friends, girls, sport and family), study when it's time to study (specially if your family is able to economically support your studies) and regulary code when you have the opportunity. Some months you'll spend more time coding because you're motivated by the results you're achieving and other months you'll barely write a line of code per week. The point is keeping the average in an aceptable value.

Also, another one! - 80% of the time for thinking what's the next to do and how you'll do it, 20% of time for actually coding. Never the opposite! And yes, you can think about it while doing sport at the gym or similar!

[EricB]

The key is to start programming before you get a girlfriend... then you'll have no time to have/get a girlfriend... Thus no Kids.
Women are the bane of productive programming!

Dunno if you're being serious or not.

Works for some, less for others. I've noticed when I dated people I do a lot less programing, hell, a lot less of everything productive.

That very last line is what's called a joke.

[Aspirer]

About the student debt crisis:

*EDIT* Just reread your post, I want you took look up articles on the "Student Debt Crisis", you'll see that student debts out weight credit card debt and car loans. 30% of people with student debt don't have degrees, and how it's impossible to bankrupt from and how it messes up your FICO score... Personal economics lessons for ya. Example: http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/06/opinion/b ... udent-debt

30% of people don't have degrees, I don't think that's an really bad statistic. Also that hyperlink of yours is total BS. It doesn't even lead anywhere. Error: 404. If those numbers you gave are even fact that means there's 70% of people with degrees, who are making the degree pay it back for them. If it stays at that rate we may eventually pay off that "huge" debt (70 is greater than 30 isn't it?) . However I've learned people with a college degree (any college degree) have a significantly smaller unemployment rate than those without. I don't understand why so many people online downplay the idea of getting a college education. There are loads more benefits than there are downsides! To mention a few, you'll be better educated about a lot of things, you will have knowledge (knowledge is power!), a certificate which says you can do such and such thing that you got your degree in (which is equivalent to landing a job, otherwise you're competing against those people who DO have a degree), after a while you will have a good resume (how do you get a better resume NOT working the profession full-time like a job?). I'm sorry BronzeBeard but that argument that you will have a better resume not by getting a job as a professional programmer makes no sense to me.

In fact I've read articles which say some employers are only hiring people with a college education, even for low level jobs like being an assistant. Employers look at your degree and think you must be committed to a career, which is something they like.

My article: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/20/busin ... d=all&_r=0

I can only assume that people who attempt to convince you not to pursue a career and a better education are just trying to keep the real potential out of the competition bracket, but that couldn't be could it? IMO that's the worst kind of person to be.

http://collegelife.about.com/od/academi ... Degree.htm

[EricB]

About the student debt crisis:

*EDIT* Just reread your post, I want you took look up articles on the "Student Debt Crisis", you'll see that student debts out weight credit card debt and car loans. 30% of people with student debt don't have degrees, and how it's impossible to bankrupt from and how it messes up your FICO score... Personal economics lessons for ya. Example: http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/06/opinion/b ... udent-debt

30% of people don't have degrees, I don't think that's an really bad statistic. Also that hyperlink of yours is total BS. It doesn't even lead anywhere. Error: 404.

I won't argue, it's pointless, this is the Internet. But let me just get across this point, I never said getting a college degree is a bad thing. Anyone who can afford it should go to college and get a degree. If you have a job, scholarships, state pays for it, or your parents were smart and actually created a fund, then get a degree!

Also don't get worked up, simple 404 error, the forums cut up the link, here ya go: Link

However, In my opinion you should not go into debt whatsoever. One of the contributing factors for the subprime mortgage crisis was all the parents who took out second and third mortgages on their houses to pay for their kid's college. And then you have the people going $100,000 in debt to get a CS degree that IF they can get a job when they get out of college, they'll only be employed until their job is outsourced.

Anyhoo, Good luck on your journey, I wish you the best of success!

[Xecantur]

About the student debt crisis:

*EDIT* Just reread your post, I want you took look up articles on the "Student Debt Crisis", you'll see that student debts out weight credit card debt and car loans. 30% of people with student debt don't have degrees, and how it's impossible to bankrupt from and how it messes up your FICO score... Personal economics lessons for ya. Example: http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/06/opinion/b ... udent-debt

30% of people don't have degrees, I don't think that's an really bad statistic. Also that hyperlink of yours is total BS. It doesn't even lead anywhere. Error: 404.

I won't argue, it's pointless, this is the Internet. But let me just get across this point, I never said getting a college degree is a bad thing. Anyone who can afford it should go to college and get a degree. If you have a job, scholarships, state pays for it, or your parents were smart and actually created a fund, then get a degree!

Also don't get worked up, simple 404 error, the forums cut up the link, here ya go: Link

However, In my opinion you should not go into debt whatsoever. One of the contributing factors for the subprime mortgage crisis was all the parents who took out second and third mortgages on their houses to pay for their kid's college. And then you have the people going $100,000 in debt to get a CS degree that IF they can get a job when they get out of college, they'll only be employed until their job is outsourced.

Anyhoo, Good luck on your journey, I wish you the best of success!

Well spoken, avoid debt where possible, sure here and there you may need to take out a loan or two to get by but in the end don't think of it as free money(which apparently a lot of people do especially with credit cards(aka blood-visa, disco-broke, and chase-me-into-bankruptcy)). Alot of people wind up getting a degree for which the finances were higher than the pay-rate of the associated degree, take school teachers for example, they get paid once a month(at least over in TN) and have to deal with a bunch of hooligans on a daily basis, and they probably spent more than they made in the first 3-5 years on the degree to be able to do that job.

[TheSHEEEP]

That's has been my life for the last 3 years and I'm not the only one. #ogre3d is filled with people like this(with minor variations).

I'm certainly not doubting that. But I also have no doubt that this kind of lifestyle will make you end up being burnt out, leaving you with no desire to ever code again (or make games). Probably not while developing the first game, but what will come after that. I can't recommend living only for a project and having no plans that go beyond that.

Having worked for a bunch of mods and other indie projects, pure dedication is about the only way to prevent loss of interest and avoid vapor-ware.

You probably mistake self-abandonment for dedication. I know that this is how many indies work. But I can not recommend it.
I'd argue that a proper work-life balance is far, far, far more encouraging to keep on working on a project you love than risking to realize that something has just taken away years of your life, and for what purpose? Maybe it even failed for him/ her, personally, for whatever reason. And I doubt that someone who worked on a project for years, sacrificing so much, would look back in such a case and say "Hey, that was great! Let's do it again!" Far more likely, he will never touch such a thing again. And a probably very good game developer was lost.

Avoiding vapor-ware is not really a point if you want to make games for a living. You'll have to actually release games for that
For mods, hobby projects, side-projects, etc. that may be true, but if you decide to make indie development your main work, you will have to make something very wrong or have some really bad luck to end up without a finished product.
It certainly helps when you have worked in normal companies before and have gained experience in (self-)management, task planning, marketing, etc. All that stuff besides the actual coding, because that is actually only a certain part of the whole process (if you want any success with it, that is).

And yes, avoid debt whenever possible.