Body For The Ogre Head

The place for artists, modellers, level designers et al to discuss their approaches for creating content for OGRE.
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Azatoth
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Post by Azatoth »

That looks really good! Are you using a separate normal map layer for the wrinkles (like around the eyes, but also the navel and the knee area)?
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ahmedali
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Post by ahmedali »

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Why ogre is looking kinda sexy from back. Its like a girly ogre. :?

Just a suggestion... The 2d sketching is ok but 3d impression is off sketch. I guess the body is not matching the "personality" idea given by the head of ogre. Texturing is very goood.
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Post by DragonSnail »

Azatoth wrote:That looks really good! Are you using a separate normal map layer for the wrinkles (like around the eyes, but also the navel and the knee area)?
Nope, so far everything is color map, and will be, until I can go more in-depth on what normal mapping does and why you need it. Remember, I'm a noob, and so far my low count of finished models are no more than 10 at most. I have a LOT to learn!

ahmedali: If you think the ogre looks girly, I recomend you to look at fat men from behind. They do have an ass as well. I'm doing this with MY vision of an ogre in mind, and naturally, it's hard for me to cater to everyones taste, since people are different. If you would rather have an ogre with the swelling muscles of a Hulk-wanna-be, you are most welcome to make one yourself. I'm looking forward to see the result! ;)
The only thing I notice (something that bothers me with the current Ogre head) is the gap in the mouth. Would you please close that up?
Let's see if I have the skills... I can't promise anything! But I will try. :)

Thanks everyone for the encouraging comments - even if this is good practise for me and I should do it for that reason alone, it's good to see people are interested. Gives me a bit of a nudge in the right direction! ;)

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Post by SpaceDude »

I agree the ogre has a sexy ass! I don't think it fits with the head :)

I think the ogre is too fat as well, the textures you made for the head on the other hand are awesome!

Have you seen the ogres from WoW? They look pretty cool.

Here is a picture:

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I think a body like the ogres from WoW with the ogre head would look great.
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Post by ahmedali »

@DragonSnail
man, that was just a constructive suggestion.
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Post by Zeal »

Great texture work! Are you using a normal map?

My only suggestion - make him a tad more lean. I think the warcraft ogres posted above are a good target. They look big and fat, but they still look fit and strong at the same time.

Your ogre has a bit too much junk in the trunk (and his giant hips make him look like a female).
Last edited by Zeal on Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Kerion »

Praetor wrote:I like it so far. We can always take a low-poly model and make normal mapped details for it later, so what you are doing is perfect. I like the sketch, and I think the model is on-target. It really does seem to fit the head.
Isn't that backwards? Wouldn't you make a high poly model, then make a normal map from that, then shrink the model down to low poly?

Anyways, thats neither here nor there. So far the model looks awesome! I've always thought our friendly neighborhood ogre needed a body.
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Post by Kerion »

Zeal wrote:Great texture work! Are you using a normal map?

My only suggestion - make him a tad more lean. I think the warcraft ogres posted above are a good target. They look big and fat, but they still look fit and strong at the same time.

Your ogre has a bit too much junk in the trunk (and his giant hips make him look like a female).
To add to this, WoW ogre's have the best animations I've ever seen for an ogre. They move slow, and sort of bumbly. Their dance is hilarious as well, their belly shakes up and down when they dance, and they spin in a circle and do this crazy 70's disco thing. It's a riot.
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Post by Nauk »

Kerion wrote:
Praetor wrote:I like it so far. We can always take a low-poly model and make normal mapped details for it later, so what you are doing is perfect. I like the sketch, and I think the model is on-target. It really does seem to fit the head.
Isn't that backwards? Wouldn't you make a high poly model, then make a normal map from that, then shrink the model down to low poly?

Anyways, thats neither here nor there. So far the model looks awesome! I've always thought our friendly neighborhood ogre needed a body.
I don't know really, looking at the new Blender-Sculpt mode i think it depends where you are coming from and what tools you have. Starting out with a 3D-highpoly-scan of a clay model or zbrush or similar i think it is easier to go from high-poly to low-poly in that order.

But if you model it by han,d based on an ortho, it appears to be a more reasonable road in my unexpereinced eyes to build-up a proper and well-working low-poly model and then sculpt it up in resolution with the new tool to highpoly to take the normal map. But thats just a guess, we will find out soon I hope.
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Post by epopov »

ahmedali wrote:@DragonSnail
man, that was just a constructive suggestion.
If I'm not mistaken, she is a 'she' ;)
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Post by Kerion »

epopov wrote:
ahmedali wrote:@DragonSnail
man, that was just a constructive suggestion.
If I'm not mistaken, she is a 'she' ;)
Ergo is a she? No way...Sinbad needs to confirm that.
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Post by Kerion »

Nauk wrote:
Kerion wrote:
Praetor wrote:I like it so far. We can always take a low-poly model and make normal mapped details for it later, so what you are doing is perfect. I like the sketch, and I think the model is on-target. It really does seem to fit the head.
Isn't that backwards? Wouldn't you make a high poly model, then make a normal map from that, then shrink the model down to low poly?

Anyways, thats neither here nor there. So far the model looks awesome! I've always thought our friendly neighborhood ogre needed a body.
I don't know really, looking at the new Blender-Sculpt mode i think it depends where you are coming from and what tools you have. Starting out with a 3D-highpoly-scan of a clay model or zbrush or similar i think it is easier to go from high-poly to low-poly in that order.

But if you model it by han,d based on an ortho, it appears to be a more reasonable road in my unexpereinced eyes to build-up a proper and well-working low-poly model and then sculpt it up in resolution with the new tool to highpoly to take the normal map. But thats just a guess, we will find out soon I hope.
Well, every text about normal mapping I have personally read has the artist creating an extremely detailed, high poly model first, getting a normal map from that, then going down to the low poly version. I could be wrong of course, I am not an artist...but it would seem much more difficult to go from low poly to high poly, than it would to go form high poly to low.
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Post by Professor420 »

It is infinitely easier and better to do the high poly version first, I think I've gone through the reasons in another thread but if you look they are all over the place.

You can, however, get decent details simply by painting a bump map and converting to a normal map, or by sculpting the high-poly version from the low poly and then re-adjust the low poly (or use the lowest sub-d level of your high poly as your base, since the verts will be in the proper position). Its possible to do low to high, but its never as good as high to low. You either need to significantly re-adjust the low after the high is done, or you will have a poor normal map and retexturing work.
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Post by ahmedali »

epopov wrote:
ahmedali wrote:@DragonSnail
man, that was just a constructive suggestion.
If I'm not mistaken, she is a 'she' ;)
I couldnt know that, but that seems to explain the "cute" aspect of ogre now :D.
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Post by jjp »

Professor420 wrote:It is infinitely easier and better to do the high poly version first, I think I've gone through the reasons in another thread but if you look they are all over the place.
I don't agree at all. It helps a lot to first create a model with your target poly count. This way you can see what of your concept's shape you can capture and what not. If you first do a high poly model you risk wasting time on creating geometry that can't be captured by your low poly model. The most efficient process for normal mapping goes like this in my oppinion:

- make a concept sketch
- build a sketch model with your target poly count, capturing as much of the shape of your concept as possible
- build a high poly mesh. Be careful not to totally break the silhouette of your low poly sketch and don't model details that would only come out as one or two pixels in your normal map
- go back to your low poly model and make it match the high poly as good as possible
- do the uv-mapping with the fact that it will be used for a normal map in your mind
- bake the normal map
- correct errors per channel and paint in the details that weren't worth modelling
Enough is never enough.
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Post by Professor420 »

You're right. Someone should go tell Epic.
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Post by Kencho »

Calm down or I'll switch to angry moderator mode... :evil:

Every artist has their own ways to do things, and sure they work great for them, so no reason to argue that here. Period.

Now back onto the suggestions and comments about the Ogre body.
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Post by jacmoe »

Professor420 wrote:You're right. Someone should go tell Epic.

Code: Select all

Epic != God
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Post by nikki »

Kencho wrote:Calm down or I'll switch to angry moderator mode... :evil:
Oh my God! <jumps under bed> :)

It looks awesome, but there is one problem. He/she is too fat. Help him/her slim down a bit (exercise?).
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Post by jacmoe »

I don't think we should comment and suggest much. :D

I mean: Let the artist be an artist - let's encourage and cheer instead - and only offer critique or tips when explicitly asked to do so.

I've seen countless attempts to create an Ogre - none of them were succesful in terms of deliverance.

Let's cross our fingers and be grateful that someone is actually trying to make it happen. :)
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Post by Kencho »

nikki wrote:Help him/her slim down a bit (exercise?).
Sounds like the perfect candidate for a morph. One Shoggoth demo might feature Ogre jogging and having his belly reduced, until he stops for a while and it suddenly comes back to normal :(
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Post by spooky_paul »

@Kencho: lmao

and regarding the normal map thing.. i always model the low version of the creature (for example) first and then continue modeling until i get it up to high rez. the high-rez model will start as low poly model as well so why do the same thing twice, i ask? then i just use nvidia`s melody
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Post by karnewarrior »

dude,(or dudette, whatever, :roll: ) add some anims and put it up for download. :D its unspeakably realistic, and i dont think you could have done better with a picture! :lol:
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Post by Jerky »

jjp wrote:
DragonSnail wrote:Currently I'm busy making quads of the tris in the ogre head
Just out of curiosity: why? Especially for realtime graphics I don't see a point for keeping everything in quads.
Quads allows the most efficient subdividing. Download the ZBrush demo and load up a model with tri's and then divide it and you will see what I mean. In the end, of course, everything becomes tris, but Quads are much easier to manage. Moreover, you can use edge loops much more efficiently with quads than with tris.

About doing high or low poly first. Each artist will want to have their own workflow, but I would tend to agree that low poly first is the best idea. Decimating a model is very difficult unless its completely quads. The best workflow (and even some Gnomon videos recommend this) is to finalize the look in the low poly before detailing a high poly model. If you are using ZBrush, you can use ZSpheres first, but you will want to export the model and optimize it (read clean it up) in your modeling tool of choice before you bring it back in to detail it for normal mapping.

Also to note, for those still learning, you will need to go back and forth between your detailing modeling tool and your normal modeling tool until you get an "eye" for what the best way to lay a model out is.

@DragonSnail:
Keep up the great work. Listen to the crits as you like, or ignore them all. Do whatever it takes so you finish the model. If that means locking yourself in a room, so be it. I know from first hand experience what it can be like to share you model with a community before its finished ;).
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Post by Alexander »

In our experience you get much better results doing organics as high poly first. Here's our workflow:

1. Create a base cage for sculpting (this will rarely work well as a cage for ZB or MB AND work as a final in game model)
2. Sculpt the character to a higher level of detail
3. Retopologize in a program such as topogun
4. Create a new ZTool or Mudbox scene with your new topology
5. Create the extremely high frequency detail as a new level on the new sculpt.

The advantages of doing it this way are numerous but one being that you can experiment with different topologies with normal maps. You may only be able to get a particular contour or look after experimentation and before the high res sculpt exists you don't know where your secondary or tertiary forms will be.

This method works well for any type of model as well but you can usually get away with other methods for hard surfaces, props, etc.

There is a reason that high-res to low-res has been a standard for cinema and high-end effects for years. :D
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