MMORPG Recruitment :!:

[ultameca]

Title of the game is of no importance

The story is based on a moderately developed, and advanced civilizations, built on an advanced race that was destroyed.

so there is swords, bows, guns and robots ect. anyway it is a general story of course subject to change and influence by it's members.

Right now im looking for a lead programmer someone that has a lot of knowledge about programming games, and MMORPGs, it would be best to know Ogre3D and it's plug-ins as well as server - client networking relation ships and databaseing with files and databases, as well as how to construct a world editor.

most likely will be in C++

you won't be doing all that work by yourself of course because it's your job to lead the programming section under me to run smoothly. im also recruiting other programmers but at the moment there is no one on the team but me.

we will be starting with the basics.
3d Graphics designers are also welcome to apply for positions as well as 2d artists.

examples are character modeling of players monsters objects areas, weapons ect and for 2d backgrounds backdrops, character portraits and pictures. for at least the 2d artist it is pretty important to be able to draw anime.

This will be a 3d mmorpg
The project is of course in it's beginning stages.
Im sure you are interested a bit in what I can do.

I know to a small degree some programming, I used the wild tangent api.
I got pretty far but then the project ended it was fun and I learned a lot.
experience which I feel will be useful for me in understanding how the game works, and yet un necessary since I will be keeping my hands out of most of the programming to the best of my ability.

3d modeling using 3D studio max
I am a moderate user, I make objects and robots best and I have yet to actually complete an organic humanoid.

I took cisco networking for two years and have pretty good networking knowledge.

I will be doing the webpage design when there is something substantial to show, I have experience in html, and ive also used macromedias suit of tools.

Lastly I already have a design for the story and the way the world will look, it will be a pretty loose project when it comes to art and your ideas, id like to see people express themselves and good ideas from the team are welcome.

I will also take care of marketing and any costs at launch time.
this will eventually be a p2p program and the file itself will be distributed freely.

For at least the programming portion you do not necessarily need experience just as long as you have done your research and know what to do.

to apply and for farther questions like how you would be making money ect don't ask here send them to my email at ultameca@aim.com

Thank you for your time

-Neotech Project-

[Devine]

Title of the game is of no importance

it would be best to know Ogre3D

and databaseing with files and databases

but at the moment there is no one on the team but me.

most likely will be in C++

because it's your job to lead the programming section under me to run smoothly

This will be a 3d mmorpg

I know to a small degree some programming

For at least the programming portion you do not necessarily need experience just as long as you have done your research and know what to do.

Lets make 2 mmorpgs while where at it

[Mawen]

I think a cool idea for a MMORPG would be where you play one of the following classes: non-programming project manager, artist, programmer, networking programmer, marketer, investor, community member, griefers, and treadmill addicts, and you try to build and operate an MMORPG, inside the meta-MMORPG. From what I can tell from this recruitment forums, this would be one of the most popular MMORPGs ever. You could even start playing with parallel universes and stuff, and go on raids to loot other peoples' MMORPGs universes to get more content for your own.


Anyway, best of luck ultameca. I don't know how many programmers there are that are itching to fulfill someone else's vision, especially starting from scratch, but I hope you succeed, or at least learn valuable things from trying. If I was starting a MMORPG and didn't want to do programming, and wanted to finish an MMORPG, I'd start with as much pre-built stuff as possible, perhaps with Worldforge, if it meets licensing needs, although I'm sure your researcher would think of this.

[johnhpus]

... drumroll ....

Please only post in this area if you have a _serious_ project proposition for which you already have something to show for.

*rimshot*

See this thread for an example of what doesn't count and the sentiments of folks who read such posts. http://www.ogre3d.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9235

PS:
Seriously friend, invest the time to learn to either program or model and people won't give you a hard time anymore.

[alphageek]

...and you try to build and operate an MMORPG, inside the meta-MMORPG. From what I can tell from this recruitment forums, this would be one of the most popular MMORPGs ever. You could even start playing with parallel universes and stuff, and go on raids to loot other peoples' MMORPGs universes to get more content for your own.

Brilliant.

[ultameca]

I missed that part about having something to show, but that is kind of impossible to do if im not doing the programming, unless you wanted me to draw art ect... this is a serious project and I understand it will take time and things will start up slow. none the less im still recruiting for positions.

I should make it clear that it is my vision but as in my first post the team will have good input and the lead programmer as well.

im not even looking for people that have experience here im just looking for that are confident that they can get the job done. if anyone wants to join send me an email and we will discuss it.

I see this like building a massive model and yes it takes a lot of time and effort. by model im talking like a bunch of model cities and model trains ect that fill rooms. I know this is a very generalized thought.

People that create games build great worlds in a small box
of course in an mmorpg the stakes are higher and there is a lot to consider.

id also like to mention that even if I did have things to show I wouldn't be showing them in a forum... of course not.

with everything big there is usually a big risk and I myself am taking big risks. on a project like this everyone should get paid upon completing it and im a firm believer of that.

I won't go into detail about the pricing or about how much people on the team will make upon completing the game other than they will be given a certain amount of a dollar for every person playing the game per month for as long as people are paying to play the game.

I think it's only fair and the amounts are still under discussion.

the group should span about 15 to 20 people before launch and I have plans for after it is complete to have a working force to maintain it.

I will of course be taking care of hosting the servers ect and no one else
on the team will be required to pay for anything as with most jobs.
I realize that an mmorpg is a big project with a lot of risks but others have done what we are going to do.

I won't outline my addition idea's here for things i plan on introducing to the game that will set it apart from the others, but I do have ideas that will be easy to put into the game, we just have to do it before someone else thinks of doing them that's all.

in my own defense (directed to anyone who criticizes work others are trying to accomplish when a making rpgs mmorpgs or any other game. and on any forum)

Im really not sure about how much experience allot of people posting in the forums about mmorpgs actually know how to make a game, or have done anything with them.

I can tell you this much when i worked with wildtangent it was tough as nails and I put in well over 400 hours. but I know I could do it again from scratch much much faster, things are different when you know what your doing.

someone who doesn't know how to program an rpg well ya it's going to take a lot of work, im sure a lot of people just look at the post and think ha ha ha this guys never going get it done there is too much work involved....

well ya if you don't set up proper teams it's going to fail, if you don't have a proper game plan no doubt it's probably going to fail.

tell me what makes this project so hard to accomplish with a proper team.

is it going to be the artists because they won't be able to draw enough materials and textures to ever complete it... is it going to be the 3d graphics artist because they won't be able to produce enough models or the level designers because the world is too big for them to create.

is it because the person working on the server side can't program a server or on the client side because the team just can't write all the code...

everything takes time, start small it will grow, it's like growing plants, im planting seeds here and im going to help them grow

so i appreciate anyone who actually took the time to read my whole post, im a perfectionist so i always write too much.

lastly please don't post criticism or tell me im not serious enough to post here.
I know I can't stop you but I am asking politely
if you are interested contact me.
thank you

[monster]

OK. I'll bite.

I missed that part about having something to show, but that is kind of impossible to do if im not doing the programming, unless you wanted me to draw art ect...

Yep, that's fine. Just prove that you've put some work / thought / effort / planning into this before asking others to blindly follow you.

For example;

- Take the time / money to register a domain name and create a decent website; don't say "there will be a website soon" or just do a vanilla install of a CMS. If the website's not ready yet then don't start recruiting yet. If you can't be bothered to customise the CMS to fit the theme of your MMORPG then other people probably can't be bothered to help you. And, for f's sake, if you are seriously recruiting then get a proper email address; nothing says "unprofessional" like a hotmail account.

- Post some concept art, if that's what you've got, or tech-demos, or (quite importantly) previous completed projects, or anything basically to prove that you've done something.

- Outline some of the things that will make your particular MMORPG unique. If it's not possible to do this without giving away all of your unique ideas then you don't have enough unique ideas. If your ideas are good enough, and integrated into your MMORPG well enough, then it will be impossible for anyone else to integrate them with their (substantially different) MMORPG.

Most importantly, give people concrete evidence of why your particular MMORPG will succeed while thousands have failed in the past. There was an interesting post on flipcode tracking down what happened to all these projects. Result; 107 announced - 104 vanished without trace.
See; http://www.flipcode.com/cgi-bin/fcmsg.cgi?thread_show=25178

The best MMORPG announced here was the Future MMORPG. It had a proper website, money invested, a load of talented programmers working for it, concept art, game art, tech demos, etc, etc, and it still vanished, see;
http://www.ogre3d.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2640

Also, here are some handy links, which I imagine you've already read;
http://sol.planet-d.net/mmorpg.html
http://www.devmaster.net/articles/building-mmorpg/
http://stratics.com/content/articles/mmoguide.php

Until you actually produce something tangible you'll excuse me if I'm a bit cynical. But if you truely are committed to this project, and have read all the arguments and discussions on why you shouldn't create an MMORPG then I honestly wish you the Very Best of Luck!

[nfz]

ultameca: go for it. Its not the destination that matters, its the journey. In other words it doesn't matter if its a mmorpg, fps, rts, rtt, rst, std, or what ever, just do it.

[monster]

std...just do it

Ooer.

[nfz]

std: http://www.stopthinkbesafe.org/games/#

[Mawen]

Regarding the "journey vs the destination":

Sometimes, the journey can be nice, but I bet a lot of people start pouring hundreds and hundreds of hours into projects not because they are hobbyists who want an activity to keep them occupied, but dreamers and doers who want to take action to see something get built. I was part of a volunteer RTS (Project Armageddon) for a year, and even though I only spent a pretty low amount of time in it for a year, I was quite disappointed when it vanished. The project went on for 5 years -- people poured into it, we kept it secret, had a great thing going, but then, we didn't get enough art, and that was it. 5 years of who knows how many peoples' thoughts, writings, concept art, 3d art, programming, ai (me), networking, etc., down the drain.

Now, I'm proud of my work, and I enjoyed developing it, and think it was pretty good, but I would have enjoyed it a lot more if I put that same work into a project that was going to succeed in the end. Right now, if I have a choice between a low-probability success project, and a high-probability one, I am going to choose the higher-probability one, all things being equal. And if the destination is success, chances are the journey will be longer and of much higher quality, with more rewards (satisfaction, resume experience, and money).

I have made bad choices in the past, getting sidetracked by middleware and tangent development, and while I'm glad I learned from these experiences* I wish I had known better in the first place, and put all that time and effort into something more productive that I could be enjoying now.

* Now, I'm trying to revolutionize the entire methodology of programming on the side (plug: http://dycen.melsib.net) on the road to making a game, so maybe I'm a little crazy, but software engineering research and cognitive science research are two other serious interests of mine so at least I know my efforts are going into something I really want, instead of being more unrealistic.


As for this thread, starting off by saying " Title of the game is of no importance", and then refusing to give any real information about the game, are excellent ways of showing what the project manager does not think is important. The project that I was involved with (Armageddon) also had a project manager that didn't really program much, but he had vision, and he shared the vision, and was highly inspirational to people. In my opinion, the portrayal of this thread's project is highly uninspirational and ultameca may want to work on that if he/she has trouble finding people to jump on the bandwagon. If people join, and quality people, then hey go nuts and have fun. Otherwise, maybe this is an experiment in semi-volunteer project management.

That 104 out of 107 figure is an interesting one. I think the bottom line here is that we are curious about the gumption ultameca thinks he/she has that would enable him/her to rise above the challenges that 104 out of 107 didn't and achieve victory conditions. So far, the crowd seems to be skeptical and it sounds like your recruiting effort here isn't doing too well. Like you said, you need a big team with a lot of person-hours over a long period of time to have a hope of doing what you want.

I know we'd love to have our skepticism proven wrong though, and I love to see it when dreamers set good goals and figure out how to reach them.

[jacmoe]

@mawen & monster:
Brilliant replies!
This really ought to be made sticky.

[sinbad]

Yep, some very well constructed points in this thread so far.

If you believe strongly enough in something, and are willing to make the required sacrifices to get there (and there will be many, believe me) then you can do it. The issue is that if you need other people to help you get there, you need to inspire and motivate them enough such that they believe strongly enough in the project to make the same kinds of sacrifices. And what's more, you have to keep people motivated all the way through the project, right to the end, because if you drop the ball halfway through, people are going to be pissed off at all the time they spent on something that went 'poof'. Sure, the experience is always useful, but working on projects that never finish really is not very rewarding. After the first one you never want to do it again.

MMORPGs fail most of the time because of all projects, they require the most sacrifices and are one of the hardest to keep momentum for - they're complex, require a lot of development, and need lots of quality art content. That means a long project gestation, even if you're working full time. If you're working part time, it's even longer.

That means you have to keep your 15-20 people highly motivated to make the sacrifices required for a pretty long period of time, with no monetary compensation. That requires some stellar leadership qualities. You need to do a lot better than you have in this post to foster that sort of dedication from people, much more to maintain it over the required lifetime of a mmorpg project.

Talk is cheap. Ideas are cheap. To recruit people, you need more.

[Wilko]

Agreed, lay down some concept art or something to show you are serious about this.

I have trouble keeping 12 guys motivated on my Half Life 2 Mod, this is going to be a nightmare!

[ahmedali]

Very nice and honest replies guys .
And to add my 2 cents..
me.nativeEnglish = 0;

The basic problem a person face in many project proposal is same as "Chicken and Egg" problem.
I mean to be able to produce good stuff you require good workers. But good workers are attracted usually if you already have good stuff.

[monster]

...to be able to produce good stuff you require good workers.

To produce some of the good stuff you're going to need good workers. But you've got to bring something to the party yourself. That can be code, art, a skip load of cash, very very very good leadership and vision, or something else. Everyone's good at something. A few half baked ideas doesn't count. That's like bringing a solitary half-drunk past-sell-by-date bottle of Steelback Tango to the MMORPG party.

[BenO]

it looks like a serious idea not a serious project ^^

[jacmoe]

yeah, the road to depravation is littered with serious ideas ...

[ultameca]

after reading the posts, I think I will work on something to bring to the table
but ive read a lot too from mmorpgs developers that says things like, don't build the website till the game is 25% done at least.

nothing is for sure when it comes to weather a game will reach to consumer or hit the chopping block, you can see that clearly if you read the biography for retro studios, they had it rough none of the six games they started on actually made it off the chopping block, but nintendo still trusted them enough to make metroid. they took one of the biggest chances in giving retro metroid and it paid off great.

so let me start by saying a few problems with mmorpgs I plan to rectify
one of the biggest flaws I have seen is there simply isn't enough team work going on.
you have the ability to split into small teams but the motivation is pretty limited. in some cases it can work out great, clans ect but for the average player it just isn't that way. I remember trying to get a guy to join my party in Ragnarok online.... he said I work alone...
this is supposed to be an mmorpg

so leveling up is fun but I don't think it should be the main focus of an mmorpg, stories are often vague, im trying out world or warcraft and the opening is cool but I haven't had much other things really stick out except i like the graphics, I like that it's warcraft and I like that there is so much content.

but the more mmorpgs I play the more im finding them to be exactly like a regular rpg except skimmed down and made so a lot of real people can be there with you in the same world....

some games have quests some are good but quests have to be motivating and fun, Im not going to go kill 40 monsters for 50 pennies or 50 exp...

I seen a lot of professional game developers try to rectify a lot of these types of problems.

lets make a game with some filling here

make the game fun to play not a pain follow existing designs that work and improve them. some games have improved upon design of the camera and movement to near perfection and for a lot of people it's enough. but as a gamer myself since Atari i don't want to be fumbling with the camera when i move, I want to see not necessarily life like characters but i like something that makes me fell like my character is kind of cool.

with the psx a lot of rpgs cropped up and updated previous designs weather that be the battle system or other controls. I already know how im going to make the battle system fresher and newer, faster and more exciting, it will still be easy and the bonus options you won't have to rely on but will make you more powerful and better.

the question is what can you do during each sword or gun hit that's going to make it better, I tell you there are good ways.

stories that need more than one player to complete but of course more that you can do alone or with someone else. stories that draw you in and give you prices that are worth it. in ff7 after beating good bosses didn't you often times get this sweet item or weapons that was so much cooler than the other.

im not used to sharing my ideas out of groups at all, probably Because im an old school nintendo fan and that's been kind of the way, in fact most developers don't like to let out fresh ideas because someone else will use them and take all the air out of these ideas.

I believe that you should be able to switch jobs in game, and gain power and abilities from your last job. your first job should have story behind it a history and a big goal should be to reach virtual immortality after mastering all the jobs.

I have found that a lot of games take too long to level up and get stronger or get better weapons and I understand this makes the game last longer but after playing some servers that change those rules I have begun to understand a bit of faster pace can be a lot of fun so I believe a bit different focus is needed in balancing that out.

of course it wouldn't make sense to master a knight job and then go to a mage job and keep all of your hp so I have instituted some of my ideas there in the penalties system.

in this game leveling up will be big you will notice it and feel it, you won't be checking every little bit surprised or wondering if you gained one. big effects and good bass sound should make it more real to you.

I fell that how the mmorpg is to be played is should be more up to the player. does the player want to go on quests with other players and gain more experience for it using the up% model or fight alone and make only enemies to challenge that ones self.

in line with what I just said I plan to bring along the ability to play your own mp3s easily in the game instead of in game music. some people might think that would ruin the experience but they will still have there nice inventive in game music, lets face it not everyone is like that, I know a lot of people that just don't like it or get bored of it, in fact in any game so they turn it off and play there own music anyway.... lets make it easier and more enticing for those people. ie heard a lot of people comment on how nice that is to be able to do in some games.

in this game you will have you rules and limits but you won't feel oppressed.

this isn't a design document these are ideas to be implemented into the game, you asked for something so I shared a small piece of my vision with you. A good game has a lot missing.. by that i mean there was a lot of ideas to be implemented into it, I can't think of any game that actually got everything into the final product but it is important to have a lot of good ideas to implement.

from what I have read ogre and some other programs can achieve the effect i want that's why Im hoping to find at least one programmer from this forum. if I can't find someone I here I will have to find anther person that can code that is willing to learn, taking up valuable time.

Also on the side when I said the name was of no importance it really is true

a name is nothing without something to stand behind it, in fact most games don't have real names until close to launch, but if you must know it took me years to finely decide on a name, that name I chose is Iced Earth
quote ""How do I kill something?". In an online environment, of course, the question mark is usually redundant. So is the grammar, punctuation, spelling, not to mention proper use of the English language, which was annoying. We had hopes that we will actually have a role-playing game, and, while there is a small community of role-players in the game, most of them are power players. This is not only true for Eternal Lands, but for most of the MMORPGs out there."

it is true that a lot of gamers like to mainly beat stuff up, and that's why the designs to be put in place will make this more fun for not just those players but all. and you will definitely get the feeling that you are getting much more powerful.

power players are of course most likely to have come from full action games and enjoy a faster pace of game play. I have seen some mmos show that quite well, while others have been jut to slow, I feel it's important to make the game so that you can be either slow or fast.

im sure im writing too much so I will just wait for your comments, I realize that there will no doubt be a lot more skeptic questions and it may be never ending, but ill keep doing my best. it only makes sense that most people would be skeptically and just to add to past posts it also makes sense that people would want proof ect because most people with experience have been burned on past projects, lets face it it's not just morpgs that have hard statistics of failure but most period. when I first started looking into game programming there wasn't even a real mmo at all and all I seen was the exact same things everyone else is writing about mmos except for strategy, fps and especially number one a regular RPG.

there will come a day when this is all past too and it will be the next big thing people will be skeptical about. there are getting to be more and more tools that make mmorpg production easier, I wouldn't have proposed the project if I didn't have full confidence in being able to complete it.

when I was younger there wasn't any real programs like wildtangent, ogre and game builders ect you either spent a lot of money, or spent a lot of work doing it yourself.

I remember when RPG maker was amazing....

my point is that what was so hard years ago isn't so hard now there are talented programmers out there and here, im not going to say it's going to be a cake walk or that even a single player game based of ogre would be either, but I know wit's easier that it was a few years ago.

for instance 3d graphics has become much easier than it used to be so many new features, programming is the same many great features.

if I compare 3dsmax 2 to 3dsmax 7 with character studio, being able to use bones is a big difference and especially for animation.

now im seeing things like programs to help with physics and sounds it's like looking at a buffet.

the right people can make a big difference. like I outlined in the beginning the people at retro were new but one risk on something new and upcoming went big. in fact nintendo hated what they had done, that's why the projects were all canned.

I wrote a lot more than I meant to but I get passionate.
thank you for your

[monster]

ive read a lot too from mmorpgs developers that says things like, don't build the website till the game is 25% done at least.

Where?

[spookyboo]

If I had the time I would read the previous post. People are more often attracted by short and catchy statements...

[Tyn]

Having the graphics engine written for you in the shape of Ogre probably counts for 25%, hmm?

The amount of ideas you have posted in this thread would be enough to start a design. When you have a design then you have something to bring to the table, although you may need more to encourage enough people to join up. It's more likely than huge posts in a forum.

[Mawen]

Well, if you're determined to do this, and determination is one of the most important things to succeed, even if you end up changing your goals, I can think of a few tips, FWIW:

I recommend trying to get as close as possible to implementing your unique ideas, by basing off of something that provides a good foundation, maybe like WorldForge (http://worldforge.org/dev/eng/clients/ember), which, to be on topic, has an Ogre client. Nothing kills your sense of satisfaction or motivation faster than getting nowhere quickly.... except for when you start to lose interest and you start getting nowhere slowly. Loss of motivation can be a slippery slope, so avoid it because it is lethal for volunteer projects.

Also, I'd be careful about losing your development skill (technical and artistic), assuming you manage to get any. The only way a lot of volunteer projects (which includes projects with the uncertain possibility of pay down the road) get done is if the most passionate person/people get enough work done (either development or marketing or both) for the passion to spread. I imagine artwork is huge in an MMORPG, so you might want to find artists that are passionate about building some kind of fantasy world that's in their heads, and let them go for it. You need to find programmers who have the (twisted) desire to dive into an MMORPG for the long haul (I bet chances of this are quite low with people learning how to program, especially newbies who won't get any better if they are not mixed with an expertly led programming team), and these programmers need to believe in your vision and believe that what you're doing is unique enough to warrant taking over their lives.

And if after a while you find that you can't inspire this kind of passion and you don't have quality people, then guess what, you need to recruit someone who can. The only reason Project Armageddon went on for 5 years, even with the main leader bailing part-way through, was a lead programmer who knew how to get things done and get other people to get things done, and he actually completed the game engine. He had fairly good leadership but it didn't seem to extend too far past the development team -- he didn't inspire the recruitment of any artists to finish their work. He was focused on his work and did it well. If you are going to develop something as huge as an MMORPG, there are going to be several areas of work, and you are going to need several superstars who each know how to take care of those areas. If you don't know what those areas are or what kind of people you need, you're in trouble.

..And if you can't recruit good leaders, for art, for programming, for networking, sound, etc., then you should consider recruiting a new project manager, and concede to being someone who provides influence over the game design aspects you're seeking to improve. Offer whatever skills you can, and get in on the game design. Join an already-strong team who acknowledge that you have good ideas.
You might want to join another project or two anyway (as long as they are ok with you doing your project too), just to get ideas about how it is led and operated.


Anyway, I'm still figuring out that the "if I put a lot of effort into something and work hard enough, I can do anything" mindset doesn't always make it into reality, (so I am kinda preaching to my self here.) Sure, you many be determined enough to finish, but unless you get enough resources (i.e. talented motivated people), you won't finish your game for maybe 200 years. I forget how many man-years it takes to build an MMORPG, for professional, experienced personnel with effective leadership, but I think if you replaced it with people learning how to program or do art etc., it might come out to something like 250+ person years, and maybe 20 years to get your project done. You can do anything, given enough time, but your goal should be to get things done in a realistic time frame. Watch the clock, and the calendar, and be honest about whether you're making progress quickly enough, and figure out what needs to change.

..just some $0.02.

[ultameca]

thank you for your 2 cents I agree

10% of the game should be done before the webpage not 25% my error, and it is more of a not a set rule. So it could be either the point is that you have a fair amount of content before you start up with this great looking webpage that really has... nothing.

here are some good links that support what i just said and are great for mmorpgs.

http://www.devmaster.net/articles/building-mmorpg/

http://stratics.com/content/articles/mmoguide.php

I also feel it is important to look where others have failed when they are willing to shed some light on their mistakes

http://www.devmaster.net/articles/mmorpg-postmortem/part1.php

[ultameca]

and spookyboo im sorry if I made the Jun 01 post too long